] A remark for readers from the US:
[ . . . ]
] Please consider the 12h time to be a relic from the dark ages when Roman numerals were used, the number zero had not yet been invented and analog clocks were the only known form of displaying a time.
fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/iso-time.htβ¦
NASA, you're alright.
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Kermode
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •I thought surely the numeral zero had been invented in Roman times, it just hadn't made its way to Europe yet?
The Khmers had it in 10683 HE:
smithsonianmag.com/history/oriβ¦
The comments are angry but informative. The claim that this is the earliest record of "our" zero seems iffy, Arabs seem to have been quoting Indians as using a zero earlier. But that's the zero with a lineage leading to Western Arabic numerals. What about the Mayans?
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Babylonians had zeros by 9300 HE, but hadn't figured out putting them at the end of numbers, only in the middle of them:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positionβ¦
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Archimedes had to invent and describe a system for naming huge numbers for a paper he wrote some unspecified time before his death in ~9789 HE, and he had to build it up based on exponentiating the myriad, so it's pretty clear the Greeks didn't have or even know about a notation with zeroes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandβ¦
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •According to the Mayans, the world of humans was created at the completion of the 13th b'ak'tun in 6887 HE. Their calendar uses a positional system with a zero. But how far back was it used?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerβ¦
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •The Mesoamerican zero may go further back in records lost, but either way, it's clear that NASA should say that the number zero "was not yet in use in Western culture" rather than "had not yet been invented". π
Alternatively, they could say the Hindu-Arabic zero or our Western Arabic numerals weren't yet invented.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •The Mesoamerican zero may go further back in records lost, but either way, it's clear that NASA should say that the number zero "was not yet in use in Western culture" rather than "had not yet been invented". π
Alternatively, they could say the Hindu-Arabic zero or our Western Arabic numerals weren't yet invented.
Kermode
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Kermode • •Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •I suspect that analog clocks as we know them also postdate the arrival of zero even in western europe, depending on what counts as an analog clock and what date you consider as βarrivalβ between the first uses (11th century) and widespread adoption among most of the population (as late as 16th century).
And I can't find when Europe moved from the old system of dividing the day and night into 12 hours each of different duration (and possibly only bothering about dividing the night in just 4 vigils) and the modern systems of hours of constant length, starting at midnight, but I believe that came *after* mechanical clocks, possibly even a few centuries later, when zero was pretty much a thing.
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clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •@Elena ``of Valhalla'' Oh no, even more facts ruining a simplified snide remark!
At the very least, mechanical clocks accurate and portable enough to determine your longitude postdate the definition of the zeroth longitude.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Oops NO I'm wrong again!
George Biddell Airy defined the prime meridian in the 1800s, but John Harrison won several longitude rewards with his sea watch already in the 1700s!
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •I guess that the concept of having traveled X degrees of latitude from wherever you started (and having to travel Y degrees more to get where you need to get) doesn't need a prime meridian?
(also, sorry, I just went into pedantic mode O:-) )
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •@Elena ``of Valhalla'' Apparently!
This whole thread is about the four words "not yet been invented" in a side note to a side note on an insignificant web page.
Don't worry about pedantic mode. This thread is all about Full Pedantic Mode. Thank you for helping me think better!
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Kermode
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •aaawatchclub.com/24_hour_date_β¦
@valhalla @clacke
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clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Kermode • •@ΖΞ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ Not just in modern times, even:
] The system of Italian hours can be seen on a number of clocks in Europe, where the dial is numbered from 1 to 24 in either Roman or Arabic numerals. The St Mark's Clock in Venice, and the Orloj in Prague are famous examples. It was also used in Poland and Bohemia until the 17th century.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour#Couβ¦
@Elena ``of Valhalla''
Kermode
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •@valhalla
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •like this
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Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •WRT zero, using a positional system and having zero as a number are pretty different things: the former is just a convenient notation, while the latter means recognizing zero as something that you can do operations on like any other number such as 1 or 2.
Among the cultures I know of, zero as a number appeared first in India in the 7th century (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmaguβ¦).
In greek mathematics, where numbers were mostly considered as ratios of segment lengths, the concept of zero had no meaning, and thus greek-inspired math in europe (and in the islamic world) had a hard time recognising it (and negative numbers) as valid numbers and not just something useful for calculations, even after they had been using the positional system from India for a few centuries.
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clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •@Elena ``of Valhalla'' It can be really frustrating reading about the hoops people were willing to jump through just because they wouldn't acknowledge that it might make sense to have numbers smaller than zero!
That's e.g. why financial ledger accounting is still unintuitive to this day (at least to an engineer's mind), because it's from Venice (?) before they had negative numbers.
Kermode
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •However, when I build a little sheet for myself I don't name thing dr/cr, but use negative numbers.
Larger project still require following the convention though.
@valhalla
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clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Kermode • •Kermode
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •You have a devious mind
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to Kermode • •Kermode
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •We were talking about having to deal with debits and credits per se, that's all.
I'm not attempting to redefine real numbers.
@clacke
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •@Elena ``of Valhalla'' Good point, you could have a longitude baseline like the Egyptians had their architectural baseline without acknowledging that putting the nothing/baseline in the middle and end of your numbers would be useful.
- So what's the number at the baseline?
- There's no real number, it's just the baseline.
I guess you're better at thinking outside the decimal system box than I am. π
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Apparently those years spent studying math and not getting a degree nor a career did something useful :D
(beside making me no longer able to count beyond 2 nor to see any difference between, say, 9 and 52441 :D )
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