] A remark for readers from the US:
[ . . . ]
] Please consider the 12h time to be a relic from the dark ages when Roman numerals were used, the number zero had not yet been invented and analog clocks were the only known form of displaying a time.
https://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/iso-time.html
NASA, you're alright.
[ . . . ]
] Please consider the 12h time to be a relic from the dark ages when Roman numerals were used, the number zero had not yet been invented and analog clocks were the only known form of displaying a time.
https://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/iso-time.html
NASA, you're alright.
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Kermode
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •The Khmers had it in 10683 HE:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/origin-number-zero-180953392/
The comments are angry but informative. The claim that this is the earliest record of "our" zero seems iffy, Arabs seem to have been quoting Indians as using a zero earlier. But that's the zero with a lineage leading to Western Arabic numerals. What about the Mayans?
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positional_notation#History
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sand_Reckoner
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Alternatively, they could say the Hindu-Arabic zero or our Western Arabic numerals weren't yet invented.
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Alternatively, they could say the Hindu-Arabic zero or our Western Arabic numerals weren't yet invented.
Kermode
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Kermode • •Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •And I can't find when Europe moved from the old system of dividing the day and night into 12 hours each of different duration (and possibly only bothering about dividing the night in just 4 vigils) and the modern systems of hours of constant length, starting at midnight, but I believe that came *after* mechanical clocks, possibly even a few centuries later, when zero was pretty much a thing.
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •At the very least, mechanical clocks accurate and portable enough to determine your longitude postdate the definition of the zeroth longitude.
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •George Biddell Airy defined the prime meridian in the 1800s, but John Harrison won several longitude rewards with his sea watch already in the 1700s!
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •(also, sorry, I just went into pedantic mode O )
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •This whole thread is about the four words "not yet been invented" in a side note to a side note on an insignificant web page.
Don't worry about pedantic mode. This thread is all about Full Pedantic Mode. Thank you for helping me think better!
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Kermode
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •https://www.aaawatchclub.com/24_hour_date_watch.html
@valhalla @clacke
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Kermode • •] The system of Italian hours can be seen on a number of clocks in Europe, where the dial is numbered from 1 to 24 in either Roman or Arabic numerals. The St Mark's Clock in Venice, and the Orloj in Prague are famous examples. It was also used in Poland and Bohemia until the 17th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour#Counting_from_sunset
@Elena ``of Valhalla''
Kermode
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •@valhalla
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •like this
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Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •Among the cultures I know of, zero as a number appeared first in India in the 7th century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta).
In greek mathematics, where numbers were mostly considered as ratios of segment lengths, the concept of zero had no meaning, and thus greek-inspired math in europe (and in the islamic world) had a hard time recognising it (and negative numbers) as valid numbers and not just something useful for calculations, even after they had been using the positional system from India for a few centuries.
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •That's e.g. why financial ledger accounting is still unintuitive to this day (at least to an engineer's mind), because it's from Venice (?) before they had negative numbers.
Kermode
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •However, when I build a little sheet for myself I don't name thing dr/cr, but use negative numbers.
Larger project still require following the convention though.
@valhalla
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Kermode • •Kermode
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •You have a devious mind
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to Kermode • •Kermode
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •We were talking about having to deal with debits and credits per se, that's all.
I'm not attempting to redefine real numbers.
@clacke
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • •- So what's the number at the baseline?
- There's no real number, it's just the baseline.
I guess you're better at thinking outside the decimal system box than I am. π
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πΈπͺππ°ππ • •(beside making me no longer able to count beyond 2 nor to see any difference between, say, 9 and 52441 :D )
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