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] A remark for readers from the US:
[ . . . ]
] Please consider the 12h time to be a relic from the dark ages when Roman numerals were used, the number zero had not yet been invented and analog clocks were the only known form of displaying a time.

https://fits.gsfc.nasa.gov/iso-time.html

NASA, you're alright.
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

I thought surely the numeral zero had been invented in Roman times, it just hadn't made its way to Europe yet?

The Khmers had it in 10683 HE:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/origin-number-zero-180953392/

The comments are angry but informative. The claim that this is the earliest record of "our" zero seems iffy, Arabs seem to have been quoting Indians as using a zero earlier. But that's the zero with a lineage leading to Western Arabic numerals. What about the Mayans?
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

Archimedes had to invent and describe a system for naming huge numbers for a paper he wrote some unspecified time before his death in ~9789 HE, and he had to build it up based on exponentiating the myriad, so it's pretty clear the Greeks didn't have or even know about a notation with zeroes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sand_Reckoner
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

The Mesoamerican zero may go further back in records lost, but either way, it's clear that NASA should say that the number zero "was not yet in use in Western culture" rather than "had not yet been invented". πŸ™‚

Alternatively, they could say the Hindu-Arabic zero or our Western Arabic numerals weren't yet invented.
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

The Mesoamerican zero may go further back in records lost, but either way, it's clear that NASA should say that the number zero "was not yet in use in Western culture" rather than "had not yet been invented". πŸ™‚

Alternatively, they could say the Hindu-Arabic zero or our Western Arabic numerals weren't yet invented.
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

I never looked into it, but have always held as "common knowledge" that india invented our modern use of zero, but I'm willing to give the arabs a look in too ;-)
in reply to Kermode

@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  I just meant Arab numbers incorporating the Hindu concept of positional zero. I believe it's undisputed that the Arabs imported the concept.
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

I suspect that analog clocks as we know them also postdate the arrival of zero even in western europe, depending on what counts as an analog clock and what date you consider as β€œarrival” between the first uses (11th century) and widespread adoption among most of the population (as late as 16th century).

And I can't find when Europe moved from the old system of dividing the day and night into 12 hours each of different duration (and possibly only bothering about dividing the night in just 4 vigils) and the modern systems of hours of constant length, starting at midnight, but I believe that came *after* mechanical clocks, possibly even a few centuries later, when zero was pretty much a thing.
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

@Elena ``of Valhalla'' Oh no, even more facts ruining a simplified snide remark!

At the very least, mechanical clocks accurate and portable enough to determine your longitude postdate the definition of the zeroth longitude. :-)
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

I guess that the concept of having traveled X degrees of latitude from wherever you started (and having to travel Y degrees more to get where you need to get) doesn't need a prime meridian?

(also, sorry, I just went into pedantic mode O:-) )
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

@Elena ``of Valhalla'' Apparently!

This whole thread is about the four words "not yet been invented" in a side note to a side note on an insignificant web page.

Don't worry about pedantic mode. This thread is all about Full Pedantic Mode. Thank you for helping me think better!
in reply to Kermode

@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  Not just in modern times, even:

] The system of Italian hours can be seen on a number of clocks in Europe, where the dial is numbered from 1 to 24 in either Roman or Arabic numerals. The St Mark's Clock in Venice, and the Orloj in Prague are famous examples. It was also used in Poland and Bohemia until the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour#Counting_from_sunset

@Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

WRT zero, using a positional system and having zero as a number are pretty different things: the former is just a convenient notation, while the latter means recognizing zero as something that you can do operations on like any other number such as 1 or 2.

Among the cultures I know of, zero as a number appeared first in India in the 7th century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta).

In greek mathematics, where numbers were mostly considered as ratios of segment lengths, the concept of zero had no meaning, and thus greek-inspired math in europe (and in the islamic world) had a hard time recognising it (and negative numbers) as valid numbers and not just something useful for calculations, even after they had been using the positional system from India for a few centuries.
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

@Elena ``of Valhalla'' It can be really frustrating reading about the hoops people were willing to jump through just because they wouldn't acknowledge that it might make sense to have numbers smaller than zero!

That's e.g. why financial ledger accounting is still unintuitive to this day (at least to an engineer's mind), because it's from Venice (?) before they had negative numbers.
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

I know what you mean, but double-entry book keeping is still brilliant.
However, when I build a little sheet for myself I don't name thing dr/cr, but use negative numbers.
Larger project still require following the convention though.
@valhalla
in reply to Kermode

accounting using real numbers? isn't money usually an integer (as long as you count cents or whatever the smallest subdivision is)?
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

well, not irrational ones, but negative, positive and fractional decimals appear on the line.
We were talking about having to deal with debits and credits per se, that's all.
I'm not attempting to redefine real numbers.
@clacke
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

@Elena ``of Valhalla'' Good point, you could have a longitude baseline like the Egyptians had their architectural baseline without acknowledging that putting the nothing/baseline in the middle and end of your numbers would be useful.

- So what's the number at the baseline?
- There's no real number, it's just the baseline.

I guess you're better at thinking outside the decimal system box than I am. πŸ™‚

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