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Is it possible to support the *concept* of a military, but not the military-industrial complex? I feel like these are two separate things.

Like, if you don't have a military, you either have a military sugar-daddy, or die. Clearly having or borrowing a military is necessary for self-defense.

Are there people who oppose the concept of Ukraine having a military?

in reply to Erik McClure

"or you die" is something you say as though every country on earth is ravenous for a landgrab via violence at the first opportunity. You think you take that for granted because of who's supplying the major cultural forces that push on your thinking?
in reply to Tarbuck Transom ๐ŸŒน

@TarbuckTransom Right now, there are at least 4 countries all ravenous for violence (America, Russia, China, Isreal), but even if there weren't, our current political situation demonstrates that a certain percentage of the population is inherently violent. As we have seen, cartoonishly evil people objectively exist. This is entirely compatible with believing that most people are good - a few evil people can cause immense damage.

Technology makes this situation worse, not better, because it's an indiscriminate force multiplier, and almost impossible to contain. Even if everyone on earth magically became pacifists for a generation, it only takes a single country sliding back into violent authoritarianism for them to start invading all of their neighbors, who would all be defenseless. Automated drone warfare makes having a numbers advantage worthless unless it's backed by guns.

The game theoretic strategy here must be to maintain a (small) military that can be scaled up if necessary.

in reply to Erik McClure

I'm not against the ability to defend your society and such, but I do question the model used to do it. A stronger military doesn't tend to make you *less* authoritarian.

Also, the "or you die" makes it sound like being conquered is to go extinct, which isn't usually the case. The ones under direct threat tend to be the government, and I am not the government.

in reply to Tarbuck Transom ๐ŸŒน

@TarbuckTransom Um, citation needed? Do you think the tens of thousands of children murdered in cold blood in Gaza were part of the government? Are we just ignoring the estimated 200,000+ violent civilian deaths that happened during the Iraq war? Given a population of 26 million in 2003, that was nearly 0.1% of the entire population. That's 1 in 1500 people dead. Almost every war fought in the past 30 years has been catastrophic for the civilian population of the losing country.

We don't have "civilized" wars anymore, because globalization means rational leaders will fight with economic sanctions and trade deals. Any war involving tanks and missiles is going to be an ideological war fought against genocidal maniacs, like Israel, who want to kill everyone, not just "the government".

Even if you don't actually die, your culture, your way of life, and everything you care about will be utterly destroyed, at which point your country has, in fact, "died", because it no longer exists.

in reply to Erik McClure

Genocide by the fascist ethnostate is your go-to because it's recent and high-profile, not because it's representative. Your other example is a destabilization mission by the evil empire that backs them, but even in your citation 0.1% is a far cry from 100% which is quite an exaggeration.

Anyway, address the main point: do you sincerely believe that strengthening the military as we recognize it aligns with the goal of being less authoritarian?

in reply to Tarbuck Transom ๐ŸŒน

@TarbuckTransom When I say "or you die", what I mean is cultural death. As in, if I emigrated to some country that was a socialist paradise with healthcare and UBI and science, an invading country would destroy all of that. So yes, if you take my statement literally, I was exaggerating, but to me, losing your way of life is a kind of death.

Regardless, I only believe in having *a* military. At no point did I ever suggest that I wanted the military to be strengthened, only that I support having one. Saying "I support the military" does not in any way imply that I want the military to be bigger. If I say "I support the right to vote" it doesn't mean I want to vote on more things, it just means I want the ability to vote on however many things are appropriate.

It seems like you're projecting meaning onto my words that isn't there. My entire point is that you can have a reasonably sized military without being authoritarian. What counts as "reasonably sized" is up for debate, of course.

in reply to Erik McClure

@Erik McClure honestly, a small military, designed to be equipped for defense, but not really to leave the country, would feel quite a good candidate for the lesser evil in the current climate.

Switzerland has managed to be quite militarized and pretty nonthreatening for decades, and I don't think that's just because their main defense mechanism was really storing the gold reserves for all potential invaders.

in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

@Erik McClure not that โ€œnot designed to leave the countryโ€ would be a cure-all, depending on the situation in the specific country, but at least it would remove one temptation for using it when not strictly needed

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