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I need a Debian VM for the tech edits on #n4sa2e. Switched to the Mac, so I need to set up a new one.

Reminded once again that you can 95% set up a working Linux box by hitting ENTER in the installer. The only things you type are your username, passwords, and one TAB to say "yes, fry my disk." The advanced options are there, but you must look for them.

My #freebsd people: I love y'all, but THIS is an installer that welcomes new users.

#FreeBSD #n4sa2e
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
• •
on the other hand, you can't 'tail -f /var/log/messages' so BSD wins for actual usability
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

-dsr- (hypoparenthetically)
-dsr- (hypoparenthetically)
• •
Debian has config for rsyslog to do the right thing as soon as you install it, which pretty much everyone should.
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Carl C
Carl C
• •

Kind of mad about how systemd absorbed that into the journal and Debian finally made "no /var/log files" the default. But there's a flag you can turn on that makes it write out the traditional /var/log files in addition to the journal.

I wouldn't hate the journal so much if I used it enough to remember how to get what I want out of it.

in reply to Ben Hutchings

Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
• •

@bwh yes it does, but why make us have that extra layer that's incompatible with all other unixes?

Sign, never mind. linux has given up on caring about being friendly to unix admins.

@Ben Hutchings
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

slash
slash
• •

I was a confirmed Debian user until about 9 or 10, when they went all-in on SystemD and the FreeDesktop[.]Org code. I have *one* Debian machine left, running 10, and I *never* update it. That's my mail server, and I spent 10+ years building up layer after layer of protections, so I've never had an issue.

I'd switch to *BSD, but that would change my IP address, and I'd lose my "reputation". Someday, I'll set up a secondary MX and let that develop its own reputation before I switch over.

Unknown parent

Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
• •
@florian oh, no, once you get the system running it is clearly a ghastly abomination
@florian :flan_hacker:
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Carl C
Carl C
• •
Debian's installer has become really robust over the years. I remember the early years where there were a lot of decisions to make. Partitioning, being dropped in the package selector and told to pick the packages you need, etc.
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

🆘Bill Cole 🇺🇦
🆘Bill Cole 🇺🇦
• •

FWIW, I rolled out a new FreeBSD 14.3 VM Saturday morning which would have been as trivial, had I not needed a particular static network config. And I had a well-planned ZFS config when done, without doing anything more than accepting defaults.

It felt a LOT slicker than any prior FreeBSD installation.

in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

ori
ori
• •

... meanwhile, I recently set up a Linux machine for my new job. Ubuntu decided it should use 100G of my 2tb disk, and I had an extended argument with my EFI firmware about whether Void Linux had installed a bootable OS.

Sigh.

in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Lars Wirzenius
Lars Wirzenius
• •
Even that much interaction was too much for me, so I wrote my own installer for Debian that requires running one command (`v-i foo.yaml`), although admittedly you first have to write a small YAML that describes the setup you want (hostname, boot drive, initial passphrase for full disk encryption, extra logical volumes, optionally more). But I tend to re-install some of my machines a lot.
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
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@Michael Lucas :flan_set_fire: and people in the Linux world complain that the Debian installer is too hard to use compared to that of other distros :D

(if I had infinite time now I'd try to install freebsd on a VM to see the difference)

@Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
Unknown parent

Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
• •
@mms is that actually in place now?
@God Emperor of Mastodon
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Jørn
Jørn
• •

My experience with the Debian installer is giving the partition table a manicure because there is no “this is an EFI system” button, or a “do the right thing but use XFS instead of Ext4”.

FreeBSD lets me pick and choose between ZFS and UFS, BIOS and EFI boot, or both.

in reply to Jørn

Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:
• •

@jornane The FreeBSD installer is unquestionably more powerful.

But it needs a button at the front: "I am a noob who wants to play with this new thing, please set me up."

@Jørn
in reply to Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire:

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
•

@Michael Lucas :flan_set_fire: @Jørn is it (significantly) more powerful? the debian installer does have an advanced mode that allows you to do more things

(not that I remember what those things are, as I very rarely need to use it)

@Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire: @Jørn
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
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@Michael Lucas :flan_set_fire: @Jørn (most of my needs for fancy stuff tended to be covered by “building uboot and putting it on an SD card with a debootstrapped system on it”, and now the debian installer also supports that, for the boards I use :) )
@Michael W Lucas :flan_on_fire: @Jørn
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

Jørn
Jørn
• •

@valhalla I did need to use the advanced mode for the mentioned manicure of the partition table.

My experience with the Debian/Ubuntu installer is that it makes weird choices for a basic installation, and is not very ergonomic when using advanced.

More than once I had to help a newbie repair the LVM that the installer had set up and somehow had broken. Did they need LVM? Nope.

@Elena ``of Valhalla''

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