Salta al contenuto principale

in reply to stux⚡

you can happily graze cattle under solar farms, we see it a lot around here (Leicestershire, UK).
in reply to Gary Parker :party_porg:

@WiteWulf yup, lift them up and let plants and animals use the space under. I'm sure I've seen research that the biodiversity of fields increased after Solar panels are installed
in reply to Christopher M0YNG

@M0YNG @WiteWulf If it;s helping... 💡 i am all for it

But let's also start covering car places to begin with

in reply to stux⚡

@M0YNG @WiteWulf We can start with places like Arizona, where it gets so hot that the good parking lots are already covered to keep tires from melting in the summer
in reply to stux⚡

@WiteWulf I was reading recently that since solar fields don't have any specific requirements around grazing or nitrogen fixation, they've started planting wildflowers and brushes, which are massively beneficial for insect populations and downstream ecosystems like birds. they described grass fields as a graveyard by comparison.
in reply to stux⚡

Why not both? Fields that can't be used for argiculture and car parks.
in reply to stux⚡

There's some rudimentary info here on why it's actually a good idea: science.howstuffworks.com/envi…

Also, we can have solar panels on BOTH fields and car parks!

in reply to stux⚡

Both is better!

But I understand that here in Louisiana, it's impossible. You see, if we covered our car parks then the cars we're forced to use wouldn't get steaming hot under the summer sun.

Sorry, it's very important that we make everyone extremely miserable for no reason. It's extremely important that we don't provide any shade to parked cars here in hot miserable Louisiana.

We also got rid of window awnings. That was very important also.

in reply to stux⚡

As panels are getting cheap, the support structure becomes a serious part of the cost (and even of the embedded energy). You need a lot more steel and foundations for such elevated panels.

Not sure about now, but not too long ago parking lots were money-losing PR projects(look us being green), while the field ones were serious.

Once we have enough PV to saturate summer peaks, every next panel produces less useful power. So lower cost is critical

in reply to stux⚡

@stux⚡ #whyNotBoth?

(there are some plants that, in some parts of the world, have been shown to grow better in the partial shade provided by solar panels than they would in the full sun)

(I suspect that they would be a bit higher up than they seem to be in the first image)

in reply to stux⚡

i mean car people would like that too. They love parking in the shade, so the car doesnt warm up.
in reply to stux⚡

Rooftop solar, on just HALF of the world's roofs, would produce MORE electricity than is used today from ALL sources. And would uplift all people, strengthen all people, and drive a permanent economic boom.

Let every Neighbourhood become Saudi Arabia, but free.

#climate

theconversation.com/solar-pane…

Questa voce è stata modificata (6 giorni fa)
in reply to stux⚡

meh. Fields of monoculture crops have very little biodiversity and certainly aren't natural. While wild grassland under solar is pretty good. And if the field was growing corn or similar for a biofuel, then the solar covered field will create about 6 times more energy in the same area. Alternatively, there are quite a lot of crops that do very well when partially shared. Yields of strawberry under PV is better than conventional practices.
in reply to stux⚡

In California, where it's often quite dry, we are putting solar farms over some fields to conserve water. In some cases, crops are being planted alongside solar panels. There are many benefits from this dual use, and many applications.
Of course we are a massive state "... the size of the Netherlands, Belgium, Slovenia, Switzerland, Austria, Luxembourg, Kosovo and Czech Republic combined.”
I imagine that in smaller countries it would be unpleasant to see solar farms everywhere you look.
in reply to stux⚡

All the nations have transmission lines. Running across acres and acres, across manufacturing zones, beside residential areas, from powerplant to city to harbour.

Often VERY cheap because govt already owns land.

Put solar UNDER ALL THE LINES, mile after mile after mile.

Put the solar cells at eight feet, feed goats on the brush beneath the solar arrays, and tomatoes.

Questa voce è stata modificata (5 giorni fa)
in reply to stux⚡

We need them on more parking structures, I agree. There are too many plants that like that kind of light for the fields to be the ones complaining about this though.
in reply to stux⚡

Or honestly, cover both. And the roofs, and the highways, and...
in reply to stux⚡

Solar power plants are 100% compatible with farming and biodiversity.

The area we will need to cover is a tiny fraction of the total used for farming, and they are not mutually exclusive.

energy.gov/eere/solar/articles…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivo…

Questa voce è stata modificata (6 giorni fa)
in reply to stux⚡

"In Georgia, sheep on a solar farm is not a baaad idea
We're losing vital agricultural land. But is solar the main culprit?"
grist.org/climate-energy/in-ge…
in reply to stux⚡

I'm probably not the only person to point this out, but fields that are shaded by solar panels have been shown to be more productive.

Covering both is fine with me.

in reply to stux⚡

Galaxy brain: large enough parking lots for a solar farm shouldn’t exist in cities and we should abolish car dependence and build walabke cities to be green.

Also infra for over solar covering car ports is 100x more expensive than some cheap panels in an field.

in reply to stux⚡

I see a lot of: "why not both"

And I am fully ageeing with that but the point of this is one more that we should start covering car lots first before we put up endless rows in fields

Both is a great option but start with the crappy one first I guess 😉

in reply to stux⚡

The car lots are also "greyspace." They already have power drops for safety lighting; maybe not high-wattage enough to support the solar supply, but it should be cheaper to run more wires through the existing pipe than to till up that field and lay pipe.
Questa voce è stata modificata (6 giorni fa)
in reply to stux⚡

covering the open car park actually benefits motorists, it can discourage birds shitting on the cars which can wreck the clearcoat, provides shelter getting in/out of the car in rough weather, plus an obvious benefit when more and more people start to drive EVs
in reply to stux⚡

I couldn't agree more! Housing and Parking spaces are, in some parts sadly, here to stay and therefore are prime for solar parks.

May I recommend, in Italy I observed, at least along the motorway, that solar parks are very common above the parking slots on motorway service areas. So, make use of it! :ablobcatheartsqueeze:

in reply to stux⚡

Not green fields though. Down in Nevada there are huge fields of arrays. This probably helps the local wildlife that is probably struggling to adapt to the even hotter temperatures. I'm not a biologist though.

And yeah, paved lots in the desert are furnaces. Shade is needed. Shit melts. There's no real reason why solar arrays can't be on top other than cost. Energy is already being adapted out in the desert and piped in so it's cheaper that way.

in reply to stux⚡

Yeah, I think covering every human made structure on Earth with solar panels, where they can generate useful power, would be a good start.
in reply to stux⚡

We wouldn't need as much electricity if capitalists stopped their fantasies of LLMs and external economic/population growth.
in reply to stux⚡

Generally agree, but also don't sleep on agrivoltatics for land that's already food-production oriented.

Also, done properly, solar fields can actually help re-wild, which addresses ANOTHER of our major crises, the biodiversity crisis.

Also also: let's just get rid of the effin' cars anyway.

in reply to stux⚡

regarding drought there is more than enough evidence for positive effects of agri pv. you gotta think bigger.
in reply to stux⚡

also frankly I can't see how this would be in any way controversial to folks using the car parks. Nobody likes having to part in the sun in the summer, or get the inside of the car wet when it's raining. They would fight over the covered spots!
in reply to stux⚡

The problem is that this idea will be used to oppose all solar installations in fields until, what, every car park in the world has one?
in reply to stux⚡

I think after parking lots, we could cover parts of highways with solar panels too.
in reply to stux⚡

Both are net beneficial, so just start somewhere.
Questa voce è stata modificata (5 giorni fa)
in reply to stux⚡

I agree that car parks are uglier and should be done first, but then consider the maths. The area covered by car parks is less than 1% of that used by agriculture (in the UK at least - ONS figures for agri, DVLA and back of envelope for car parks). Car parks alone will not be enough.
in reply to stux⚡

Honestly the even better version of this is converting those parking lots into infill housing and mixed use development
in reply to stux⚡

of course it should be both. And there’s no reason on earth why it should not be. It’s a win-win because both the agriculture and the solar panels perform better when combined.

news.arizona.edu/news/agrivolt…

in reply to stux⚡

We can't usefully force a canonical ordering of these things across society, so saying "do all X before any Y" effectively turns into "never do Y". It gets used a lot as a justification for nimby antics that are holding back net zero policies.
in reply to stux⚡

I think it's that normal defeatism trap that so many people fall into. They get into a thought process of "if you can't fix everything, then you shouldn't do anything." Like the people who say "we should never go into space until we fix things here on Earth first." We'll never fix things on Earth, but we sure as heck should go to space for too many reasons to name in an aside.

I do think there is an issue of ownership though. Since the car parks are generally owned by someone else, they'd probably claim the electricity as their own. Darn though, it actually has a double benefit of providing shade...

in reply to stux⚡

I visited a 9GW community-energy solar array across 40 acres yesterday. Low grade farmland, never above a grade 3b. Sheep wandering around underneath, nature pond with Great Crested Newts in it and Skylarks overhead. The one remaining field had beef cattle because… that’s all you can grow… so, as a vegan, I say, why not? Better than cows! (although bog or forest would be even better)
in reply to stux⚡

Uhm cover both the fields and the car parks. Covering the fields is good for the plants (including the crops! higher yield!), insects and small animals on the fields.
in reply to stux⚡

Yes I would start with the urban areas!

However there are agrovoltaic systems where spread out panels are elevated above certain crops. They protect fruit yields from excess sun leading to needing excessive watering according to studies.

But yes the urban areas are seeeeriously missed. Did you know you can install them on walls and fencing. They cool better.

in reply to The Tired Horizon

@The Tired Horizon @stux⚡ also, panels in cities are better at producing energy that will be used inside the city

but having panels in the (actively used also for food production) farms also means that you have electrical infrastructure in the farms, where you could use it to recharge / power electrical farming equipment instead of having to power it with fossil fuels

in reply to stux⚡

Sometimes placing solar panels on farms actually helps. You may need less irrigation and the optimal amount of sunlight is different for various crops. This may, of course, depend on your climate: it is not "one size fits all."

nrdc.org/stories/made-shade-pr…

in reply to stux⚡

here in California we have giant fires going on where they just put in controversial grass field solar, which is another point for car parks/parking lots getting solar first. It's closer to where people are, requiring less transmission distance and less vulnerable to wildland cycles of fire & flood.
in reply to stux⚡

I like the idea of solar paving slabs durable enough to walk on and even cover roads.

I'm surprised governments aren't scrambling to invest in these. Instead the UK wants nuclear power stations that'll cost magnitudes more, and take decades to build and integrate with the grid. Madness...

in reply to stux⚡

Although there is something to be said for putting solar on already-used land if there is a requirement for power there, that car park is probably half the problem - people really need to think about alternative means of travel, and if they need to travel in the first place. Would much prefer it if every public building had solar panels on their rooves.
in reply to stux⚡

I've actually read somewhere that covering fields with solar panels instead of mono-cultured farm land actually helps nature, especially animals that can use it to live under and find food (that would potentially not grow on farm land or be polluted with pesticides)

Also seeing as we need to focus on getting rid of cars first I kinda feel like it's a waste of resources to try to make parking cars feel better by adding shadow. 👀

Just get rid of the car parks, put down plants and the solar panels on top. Maybe even some nice parks and sitting areas under it.

in reply to stux⚡

some crops benefit from the shade actually. Some farmers who aren't yet bought out by big corpos need the extra dosh from hosting solar to stay independent too.

Why not just get rid of car parks entirely and make public transit freely accessible?

in reply to stux⚡

Start with all car parks, yes. And irrigation canals. And roofs that aren't usable as terraces or greenspaces.

And! There's some crops & livestock that actually do well under raised solar panels! That should become normalized.

in reply to stux⚡

Don't make car parks like that. Create good public transport and cover your buildings.
in reply to stux⚡

Do both... WITH THE POWER OF AGRIVOLTAICS!!!!!!

(Just imagine reverb there.)

Solar panels actually improve the yields of raspberries and grapes, because those crops are sensitive to too much direct sunlight. I'm sure there are other crops that benefit, I just haven't seen any papers that talk about them.

in reply to stux⚡

cover the car park with solar panels, and use that power to charge EVs.
in reply to stux⚡

Like this also youtube.com/watch?v=lgZBlD-TCF…
in reply to stux⚡

@michaelrowe01 I don't understand why this is not a thing. It's absurd to cover perfectly good land with solar panels when they can be used on the roofs of parking lots, office buildings, homes, and more.🙄
in reply to stux⚡

Actually… There’s pretty good data PV’s actually improve the yield of some plants, legumes particularly. Some plants like partial shade!
in reply to stux⚡

You've seen drivers right? And what they do to the bollards and barriers in parking lots? If I'm the power company, I'm not putting expensive generating infrastructure where people are going to be constantly parking their cars right next to the pillars holding it up.
in reply to stux⚡

Solar panels actually benefit many crops by providing shade. I'm sure it works poorly for wheat and corn and other grains.

Covering car parks is an excellent idea.

in reply to stux⚡

You are on the wrong track, Stux.

#AgriVoltaics

*Both* make a lot of sense, climate permitting OFC:

mastodon.social/@HistoPol/1099…

in reply to stux⚡

At the risk of being contrarian to the admin of my instance (😬):

Intelligent use of solar panels *can* actually enhance the productivity of agricultural land. Turns out a lot of plants and animals evolved in environments that are occasionally shaded. Who knew? 🤷‍♀️

And car parks large enough to support a solar farm shouldn't exist to begin with. Put housing and mixed-use buildings there with panels on the roof, instead of panels over an endless plane of tarmac.

in reply to stux⚡

Or put the solar panels on higher stilts and plant raspberries or grapes under them. Or let sheep graze and enjoy the shade.
in reply to stux⚡

Drivers are idiots who can’t drive. Keep expensive stuff away from them.
in reply to stux⚡

@mwyman Covering fields allows farmers to grow shade plants like greens while reducing water consumption. It's a good idea in many ways. (There's nothing wrong with covering car parks also.)_
in reply to stux⚡

Certainly in favour, but it's a more expensive construction which might well make it financially unviable.
in reply to stux⚡

the important thing about rural areas, in comparison to urban car storage facilities, is rural areas are larger.
in reply to stux⚡

Actually, there have been experiments with elevated solar panels over the fields and some crops grow better with partial sun than with full sun full time. It also shields the crop from some things, including helping to shield the crop from extreme wind events and some kinds of bird damage. I would rather see the solar panels on buildings and car parks and bridges and protecting rivers from excessive operation, but that doesn't mean you can't use them over your fields as well when there's an advantage in that.
in reply to stux⚡

i say abolish car parks and cover our houses with pv!
in reply to stux⚡

Yes, but.

But there are well documented benefits to adding solar panels to fields that have crops in them.

So, both.

in reply to stux⚡

cool story on running livestock under solar panels:

abc.net.au/news/rural/programs…

in reply to stux⚡

The roof of every new building should be mandated to have these installed.
in reply to stux⚡

Yeah, except people experimenting with solar over fields have actually found that it gives them higher yields.
in reply to stux⚡

for once, I'm actually proud that my native 🇫🇷 has mandated all car parks be shaded with PV panels.

entreprendre.service-public.fr…

It's fairly recent, change is slow but you can see it.

in reply to stux⚡

Yes, but also, less carparks in general. I'm all for solar on bus/tram/train stations.
in reply to stux⚡

car drivers are also happy because in summer their cars don't become incredibly hot!

Questo sito utilizza cookie per riconosce gli utenti loggati e quelli che tornano a visitare. Proseguendo la navigazione su questo sito, accetti l'utilizzo di questi cookie.