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I am nonbinary, and I live in a country where nonbinary isn't legally accepted (but medically accepted, which differs from our neighbouring countries). I don't want a third legal gender, like an X.

Oh, it'd be a good second best, but I want something else. Do away with legal gender altogether. It's a remnant of a time where your gender could make it forbidden to do certain things like voting or join the military or have certain jobs. Leave it in the past. No legal gender marker needed.

reshared this

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

"B-b-but spoooorts?! Starsloth, how will we separate people into different classes in sports?"

I dunno, I am not a sports specialist, but as a group humans can be surprisingly clever, I am sure we can find another way. Like maybe after ability? Make true top teams without caring about what genitals people have.

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

"What about trans people?"

I'll simplify here, to keep it to one post. A medical transition is a question of modifying your outter self to reflect the inner truth. Absolutely no reason to make that much different from today, though I think it should be more easily accessible. Also a question between your medical team, you, and whoever else you want to involve. I am waiting for an appointment myself, it's not dependent on my legal gender.

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

"But I want to keep looking like a man/woman!"

I am not suggesting we take away the social or medical definitions, just the legal.

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

"How will we ensure there is no discrimination against women or nonbinaries if we don't have a gender marker in the registers?"

I can't speak for how it works elsewhere, but here discrimination is illegal on a whole slew of criteria, most of which are not in registers, and several of which are explicitly against the law to register (like skin colour and religion and medical conditions). If we include white women in those unregistered reasons maybe we'll start doing a better job of it.

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

I am not writing this to debate, so I'll probably not continue answering fictive or real questions about how will it workkkkkk, because again humans are smarter when we work in groups, we can figure the rest out together, not all from my brain.

Really appreciate the boosts on the first post in the thread, these kinds of thoughts need spreading. 💚

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

"What about this other problem, huh?"

Make one improvement at a time, even if there are other problems. It's all a part of a system and everything is connected, yes, but if you live and work within a democracy a big change all at once is extremely unlikely to happen. A whole slew of smaller changes can, together, make everything different, and sometimes that happens in a short time.

I'm not trying to fix advertising, military expansion, or even capitalism with this (though it is a step).

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

I'll make more explicit what I thought I said clearer above:

I cannot make concrete suggestions for places where I don't know how things work. As I said in the opening post, in the country where I live, we don't have an X and I'd rather abolish legal gender altogether instead of adding more genders. I think the rings on the water from that can be solved /here/, and as I said in the post about preventing discrimination: I don't have sufficient knowledge to speak for other places than here.

in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

I'd love to see thoughts on how to counter negative effects that would be an issue in your location, if you find there are other systems affected than the ones I mentioned in the thread. For instance someone mentioned military service, here that is already mandatory for all genders so it wouldn't be affected by removing legal gender. How would you propose to solve that, or other questions, to enable this change where you live?

Anything is possible when we work together to figure it out.

in reply to StarSloth

Morgan ⚧️
Morgan ⚧️
• •
here the military, or rather who has to sign up for the draft, is affected by legal sex (well, not exactly, it's assigned sex at birth even if you change your legal sex for literally everything else)
But it really shouldn't be
I don't think we need to start drafting everyone, I'd rather we don't draft anyone
But the ASAB rule is disgusting and we need to do away with that too 🤷
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
I have been told that in Germany, in addition to an X-gender marker, one can get gender markers removed all together. It's on an individual basis, but still, sounds like a great step in a good direction (even if I suppose this wasn't what the legislators intended).
in reply to StarSloth

disorderlyf
disorderlyf
• •
I love how all the arguments transphobes use in favour of gender markers that you mentioned basically have nothing to actually do with ID and have everything to do with validating their apparently very fragile worldview.
in reply to StarSloth

Azurik: Rise of Perathia updates
Azurik: Rise of Perathia updates
• •
Also, I think discrimination is due to the discriminators perception of the discriminated. Not about the discriminated's actual identity. E.g transvestigators harassing cis-women because of transphobia or straight people being gay bashed after exiting a gay club.
Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)
in reply to Azurik: Rise of Perathia updates

Azurik: Rise of Perathia updates
Azurik: Rise of Perathia updates
• •
So I think that discrimination laws should be rooted in the motivation of the perpretator not in the legal identities which may or may not exist and sometimes may be fluid.
in reply to StarSloth

LovesTha🥧
LovesTha🥧
• •
I know we are a long way from it being the right time, but I think removing the societal definitions of genders would be a boon.
in reply to LovesTha🥧

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@LovesTha As long as people /want/ to define themself as a gender, that must be allowed to exist. I do think the lack of LEGAL gender marker would help in making things blurrier for a lot of people, making gender a private thing between you and your community, and your body's various parts for you and your health care provider. Right now we are just barely moving away from legal gender literally being a descriptor of whether you have a penis or vagina in sweden. A state register of genitalia.
@LovesTha🥧
in reply to StarSloth

LovesTha🥧
LovesTha🥧
• •
yep. pretty much by definition a societal change would have to occur because society wants it. Anyone trying to force it would generate so much backlash that movement in the other direction is more likely
in reply to StarSloth

Prince Lucija
Prince Lucija
• •
I'd love to see de-professionalisation of sports. or at least this incessant advertising and amount of money poured into it. like maybe make it explicitly nonprofit.
in reply to Prince Lucija

StarSloth
StarSloth
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@prinlu yes, agreed, and I'd like to see that independent of whether legal gender is abolished.
@Prince Lucija
in reply to StarSloth

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
•

@StarSloth and some sports already have categories based e.g. on weight, I'm sure that other sports can find some measurable characteristic that is actually related to the performances in that sport they can use to separate people in fair-ish classes.

I'd expect a significant number of those characteristics to be statistically correlated with sex (rather than gender), but statistically correlated doesn't mean exclusive to.

And other sports may just as well find out that they don't really need those categories anyway.

@StarSloth
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

gunstick
gunstick
• •
it would be cool to have BMI classifications for running.
"bit that is complicated!"
Computers can deal with complicated stuff. Use them.
Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)
in reply to gunstick

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@gunstick @valhalla BMI doesn't work on individuals, it's a very flawed method meant for statistics on a population level.
@Elena ``of Valhalla'' @gunstick
Unknown parent

StarSloth
StarSloth
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@pettter @LeoR1010 jag skrev ett inlägg om det i tråden.
@pettter @Leo Ringqvist
Unknown parent

pettter
pettter
• •

@LeoR1010 Att kategorisera är att påtvinga en kategorisering, men att inte kategorisera kan göra det svårt att studera saker.

Diskriminering, ffa strukturell diskriminering där alla inblandade "tror" att de såklart inte är fördomsfulla eller dömer efter könsuttryck eller hudfärg kan vara svårt att få till ordentlig och otvetydig data på om man inte har väldigt stora mängder och många sätt att studera på.

Det är kanske inte bra nog argument, men det är argument iaf.

@silhelm

@StarSloth @Leo Ringqvist
in reply to StarSloth

pettter
pettter
• •

Mm, såg det nu - det är inte ett dåligt argument spontant som du gör.

Amerikaner är ju kontinuerligt fascinerade över att vi har så extensiv diskrimineringslagstiftning i Europa utan att faktiskt kategorisera och följa sånt som hudfärg/etnicitet/religion.
@LeoR1010

@Leo Ringqvist
in reply to pettter

StarSloth
StarSloth
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@pettter @LeoR1010 Undantagen vi gör för registrering av sådant är ju oftast i forskningsyfte och/eller medicinskt, och medicinskt finns ju dessutom ett syfte att veta om folk har tex äggstockar och andra kroppsdelar som inte är relevanta för deltagande i samhället. Tänker att det går att lösa om vi vill.
@pettter @Leo Ringqvist
in reply to StarSloth

Tim 🛥️🌈
Tim 🛥️🌈
• •
Also "titles". It would save a lot of bother to get rid of Mr, Ms, Miss, and Mrs. I'm not keen on Sir, Lord, etc either.
in reply to Tim 🛥️🌈

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@spodlife We don't use titles so I always forget those. Yes, abolish them, I hate having to choose one when I'm travelling or such.
@Tim 🛥️🌈
in reply to StarSloth

Luna :nb_verified:
Luna :nb_verified:
• •
For me the only purpose of getting a non-binary gender marker is because I wont get gendered mail anymore
in reply to Luna :nb_verified:

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

@nyovaya I am sorry that is a thing you have to receive.

If noone has gender markers, how will they send gendered mail?

@nyovaya
in reply to StarSloth

Luna :nb_verified:
Luna :nb_verified:
• •
Yes exactly, I support your argument that noone can be discriminated if noone has a legal gender marker.
in reply to Luna :nb_verified:

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@nyovaya It's not quite that easy, as people will still act on visual cues, but it means a whole lot of people who can't see you won't be able to. It'll also be one less data point for the corpos to abuse.
@Luna :nb_verified:
in reply to StarSloth

fascism is treif (mh break)
fascism is treif (mh break)
• •

@nyovaya

They might still guess 😥

Or ask for honorific, often giving only two options.

Here fewest of those who send me mail (paper or e) ever have seen my *legal* gender marker, but still they're "Ms ..." or something.

It's tiring.

@Luna :nb_verified:
in reply to StarSloth

refraction :verified_transgender:
refraction :verified_transgender:
• •
unfortunately military conscription is very much still a thing here. and could become a thing again in Germany basically whenever the government feels like it.
in reply to refraction :verified_transgender:

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

@elexia Military service is mandatory for both men and women here, based on physical and (judged on a limited number of datapoints) mental capabilities. If we get an x marker X'es won't be excempt, and removing the gender marker also does not change anything. Will an X be excempt for the draft if it's instituted where you are?

Again, I am speaking about a suggestion for where I live, as a better alternative than instituting a third gender marker.

@refraction :verified_transgender:
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@elexia I can not make a suggestion for any other country, although I do think my thoughts have merit as a philosophical basis. I think it's practically doable here, that might be different elsewhere.
@refraction :verified_transgender:
in reply to StarSloth

refraction :verified_transgender:
refraction :verified_transgender:
• •
pretty sure mandatory military (or alternative civil) service is defined to be limited to men. so yeah anyone that isn't legally a man would be exempt.
so we should make it so no one is to abolish military service at the same time.
in reply to refraction :verified_transgender:

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@elexia I do think that we need to separate different problems out and not leave off making improvements in one area because there's a problematic thing existing in another area. Also, if we try to fix it all at once usually it doesn't pass the necessary approvals because people have opinions about different things. Break it down, do all the issues separately, wrangle them out to their best version separately, but as a part of a larger roadmap to a better world.
@refraction :verified_transgender:
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@elexia If your worry is that more people will be affected by military service, maybe make that dependant on medical gender, not legal gender.
@refraction :verified_transgender:
in reply to StarSloth

refraction :verified_transgender:
refraction :verified_transgender:
• •
what the fuck is "medical gender" even supposed to mean? that's not a coherent thing. and no I absolutely will not support forcing transfems into abusive patriarchal structures together with cis men even after they legally changed their gender because cis people think "penis = man". that will get folks killed.
in reply to refraction :verified_transgender:

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

@elexia I gave you this reply earlier. My suggestion is not about Germany.

craftgoblin.club/@silhelm/1145…

StarSloth

2025-05-18 09:05:18


@elexia I can not make a suggestion for any other country, although I do think my thoughts have merit as a philosophical basis. I think it's practically doable here, that might be different elsewhere.

@refraction :verified_transgender:
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

@elexia It'd be great with similar improvements elsewhere, but I cannot and will not speak for those elsewheres. Where I can speak for is here only. People with local knowledge will have to develop suggestions for their locales, and I look forward to seeing them!

I did interpret that you're not against a removal of legal gender markers elsewhere on principle, and I hope that interpretation isn't wrong, if it, I apologise.

@refraction :verified_transgender:
in reply to StarSloth

refraction :verified_transgender:
refraction :verified_transgender:
• •
I would strongly prefer if legal gender was simply eradicated as a concept.
in reply to StarSloth

Nick
Nick
• •

In all of the important and complex discussion of gender and anatomy, there's one very basic question which seldom, if ever, gets asked:

"In what situations does it actually matter?"

It matters to the individual, of course, because it's part of who they are.

It matters, or should matter, to lovers, family and friends, for the same reason.

It matters if you want to make babies the old-fashioned way.

It matters in some medical situations.

It should NOT matter in law (other than to ensure equal treatment and guard against hate), welfare, education, employment or societal "value" of the individual.

It CERTAINLY should not matter in day-to-day general interaction with people in public (unless the person chooses to engage in discussion).

in reply to Nick

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@ratcatcher As I said later in the thread, the social (your expression, what words you use to describe yourself) is not affected by the legal marker existing, nor should it, and likewise, it's relevant for your doctor to know if you can let's say develop cervical cancer. It used to be a legal limiter, mostly in that women couldn't vote, own property, inherit in some cases, have jobs (later, certain jobs), but all those have been abolished or if not, should be.
@Nick
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

@ratcatcher In Sweden, which is where I can speak about current systems, it's illegal to register skin colour and ethnicity, medical conditions, religion, and a list of other things "that could be used to discriminate against", in any kind of searchable database. Notes of those things can be taken if the contents can be kept secret AND they are relevant for helping the person (the systems differ slightly for medical providers who need to register certain things).

>

@Nick
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@ratcatcher It's illegal to discriminate on basis of the things in the list, as well as gender, which is the one things that /is/ registered. A) treat it the same as the others B) while discrimination is certainly a problem, improving the safeguards further, with a system with even less registered information, should be the way forward.
@Nick
in reply to StarSloth

GinevraCat
GinevraCat
• •
One place it is helpful is to measure inequalities. Just like for ethnic or social groups. If you can't capture a characteristic, you can't unpack areas of need based on that characteristic.
in reply to GinevraCat

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •

Please see thread:
craftgoblin.club/@silhelm/1145…

In short, it's against the law to register ethnic or social groups here, and it's still illegal to discriminate based on those factors.

StarSloth

2025-05-18 08:03:37


"How will we ensure there is no discrimination against women or nonbinaries if we don't have a gender marker in the registers?"

I can't speak for how it works elsewhere, but here discrimination is illegal on a whole slew of criteria, most of which are not in registers, and several of which are explicitly against the law to register (like skin colour and religion and medical conditions). If we include white women in those unregistered reasons maybe we'll start doing a better job of it.


Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)
in reply to StarSloth

GinevraCat
GinevraCat
• •
Interesting - I must check how Sweden does data capture then. Because it does not matter how illegal discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnic group, religion, sexuality etc is, it still happens.
My uninformed, strictly amateur impression is that sweden does pretty well in gender equality, though. (Which does eliminate my objection to removing it from legal forms. ).
Unknown parent

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@old_angry_queer what makes "legal gender" can be debated and is probably a whole field of study, but I just read a history of the registration of inhabitants in Sweden on the Tax office webpage (they're responsible for it nowadays). In 1749 they started using pre-printed tables for filling in information about people, and the first divider is always gender (or sex, same word in Swedish). Sweden has always been census conscious, apparently, there were many attempts before this.
@Cameron 💙🏳️‍⚧️🦌
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@old_angry_queer Either way, I would argue that as long as gender has had a legal limitation (owning property, inheritance, marriage, voting, military service, etc & so forth), there's been a view that gender is a legal divider from the state. In Sweden I think all of these have been abolished, and the continuing register has mostly been a register of genitals (sex rather than gender), that will change later this year. The practical use of registering gender is past, it's obsolete.
@Cameron 💙🏳️‍⚧️🦌
in reply to StarSloth

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@old_angry_queer Also borders are fictional, limiting migration of a migratory species of animals (humans) is cruelty, abolish it all. But gender seems an easy starting point, at least in Sweden.
@Cameron 💙🏳️‍⚧️🦌
Unknown parent

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@LeoR1010 fun fact (som du kanske redan vet!), en av siffrorna i personnumrets fyra sista är en könsmarkör (jämnt för kvinnor och ojämnt för män), trooooor det är tredje siffran men lite osäker, många år sen jag höll på med sånt. Det innebär att om vi vid årsskiftet skulle radera alla könsmarkörer i folkbokförning, pass, mm, kan man ändå läsa ut assigned at birth kön från alla födda innan den ändringen. Detta är också orsaken till att man byter personnummer vid könsbyte.
@Leo Ringqvist
in reply to StarSloth

an actual bus
an actual bus
• •
agree 100%, been thinking about this myself for a while
in reply to StarSloth

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
•

@StarSloth

in Italy there are two things that would be *funny* (FSVO funny) to deal with for this change

1) the tax code that is supposed to identify one individual for life encodes the gender (and the name, and other data). dealing programmatically with that tax code is already a mess, this would make it even more of a mess (I have dealt with that mess. I'm all for making it even more of a mess, it won't be much worse than it already is anyway :D )

2) the lists of eligible voters that can vote in each polling place are still divided by legal gender, because in 1946 when we had our first free election after fascism, and the first when women were allowed to vote, the lists for men were already ready, while the ones for women had to be prepared in a hurry. And 1946 was just a few years ago, so they really haven't had time to make an unified list, and doing so by hand as it would have to be done in 1946 before citizen data was into a computer would take a lot of time, I guess. (People have been asking to make a single list for quite some time now, and the sooner it happens the best it would be).

@StarSloth

StarSloth reshared this.

in reply to StarSloth

Quim Nuss Székely
Quim Nuss Székely
• •
the only sound rebuttal I've heard of this is that we would lose discrimination statistics in the workplace. Like, gender gap would not be mesurable if there's no gender to begin with.
in reply to Quim Nuss Székely

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@quimnuss I am sure we can find solutions to it if we want to. The current measures, by going by legal gender rather than reported gender, also has weaknesses. If someone passes as the opposite gender and is treated like it, and paid like it, but legally of one gender, that skews results. Not to mention all the nonbinaries who might be treated anywhich way.
@Quim Nuss Székely
in reply to StarSloth

Sparkwave
Sparkwave
• •
It's annoying how some institutions are like "Oh, nonbinary people want a trinary gender system! Since they're all perfectly in the middle with no deviations whatsoever, this would solve it"
I'm nonbinary, I use she/her pronouns, and I'm mostly female. Genders are a spectrum, or perhaps something even more complex. What is it with old government people not understanding spectrums
Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)
in reply to Sparkwave

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@Sparkwave they don't even need to understand spectrums, they just need to stop keeping registers of genitalia. Gender has been registered in sweden since the late middle ages and early modern period, in various attempts. It was for legal purpose: women couldn't own certain property unless very specific circumstances and couldn't vote even when that was extended to all men, men could be drafted for military service and could own land. Also marriage laws which have been replaced nowadays.
@Sparkwave
in reply to StarSloth

Sparkwave
Sparkwave
• •
Right, and all of it is stupid and outdated anyway, so why do we need legal gender
in reply to Sparkwave

StarSloth
StarSloth
• •
@Sparkwave exactly, all of those laws have been repealed or replaced, ergo the gender marker no longer serves a legal purpose.
@Sparkwave

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