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Insults can tell you a lot about a person and a people. What do they find worthy of contempt? Here's an aristocrat in Constantinople, angry at how the common people jeered at them when the Venetians and crusaders took over after the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_… , and talking about how vile the new masters are:

"for they had not yet had much to do with the beef-eating Latins and they did not know that they served a wine as pure and unmixed as unadulterated bile"

Greek-speaking Romans ("Byzantines") didn't eat beef? How was wine in Consantinople and Rome different?

in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

γƒ©γ‚€γƒˆγ‚Ήγƒ”γƒ«οΌε€§η‹γƒͺγ‚Ή
γƒ©γ‚€γƒˆγ‚Ήγƒ”γƒ«οΌε€§η‹γƒͺγ‚Ή
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…this is surprising to me. I know the Greeks mixed wine with water.

But so did the Romans.

I think they would sometimes use unmixed, pure wine for religious purposes, but I didn't think unmixed wine was a normal, daily thing for them.

in reply to γƒ©γ‚€γƒˆγ‚Ήγƒ”γƒ«οΌε€§η‹γƒͺγ‚Ή

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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People in Rome still mix water in wine when drinking it for meals! At least my Italian corridor-mates in university did. So I'm confused.

But I think maybe ancient Romans did and modern Romans do, but 1200s Venetians and French didn't and don't? Those form the core of the "Latins" referred to here.

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (2 anni fa)
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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As for the beef:

Most houses kept pigs. Lamb was more expensive. Beef was only seldom eaten. Cattle were used to pull ploughs instead, and were seen as work animals.


So in Constantinople, eating beef was kind of like eating donkey.

cooksinfo.com/byzantine-food

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (2 anni fa)
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
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As for mixing water in wine in Italy today, well, some people do, but it's considered something you only do with bad, cheap wine that doesn't have a great taste otherwise (or, when I was young, something that you gave to children).
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
• •

That's why I saw it in the student corridor I'm sure. =)

I think they bought the lunch wine not in bottles but in the kind of 4-liter plastic jug with a handle you'd otherwise buy lemonade concentrate in for a big family or a school class.

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (2 anni fa)
in reply to γƒ©γ‚€γƒˆγ‚Ήγƒ”γƒ«οΌε€§η‹γƒͺγ‚Ή

Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
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The romans used to complain about the fact that germanic barbarians used to drink wine straight instead of mixed with water: I'm not sure how much of that was based on truth and how much it was just a way to say that they weren't civilized.

If it was true, then it's pretty much likely that the crusaders and Venetians, coming from elite classes that descended from germanic conquerors, also drank straight wine.

On the other hand, it could have also been the greek speaking romans keeping alive the tradition of accusing people of not being properly civilized.

in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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That's great background, thanks! As usual it sounds like it's probably both of the things you suggest.
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (2 anni fa)

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