A friend of mine joked when this came to light the other day that we should start the timer to see how long it would be before some SystemD person came out and said that was expected behavior and you're an idiot for using it wrong. And we laughed to ourselves, wouldn't that would be funny, that really is the reputation they have now isn't it.
Well, jokes on us, because that's the first fucking comment on the bug.
systemd version the issue has been seen with 256 Used distribution Debian Unstable Linux kernel version used 6.8.12-amd64 CPU architectures issue was seen on x86_64 Component systemd-tmpfiles Expec...
@mhoye Look, it's plainly in the documentation that when you press this button, the computer will shoot you in the face. It's your fault for not reading the docs.
Do not question why there exists a button that shoots you in the face without warning
@argv minus one You say that like it's a good thing. I also acknowledged the difference between / and *. My point, which remains unchanged, was that there is an effort underway to reduce the number of foot guns, and that's a good thing.
Look, "/home is a tempfile" isn't just a footgun, or a bug.
It's an explicit ideological attack on the whole idea of what Linux is and who Linux is for.
If /home is just a tempfile to be purged when drivespace pressure hits some arbitrary threshold then Linux is a corporate-owned SAAS shim, and that's all it is. It's not just "breaking userspace", it's abandoning the idea that the people using that space and the stuff they've made there matter at all.
It's hilarious that everyone is still ranting about this (with a questionable spin on things) while upstream already implemented and backported a restriction of the usage of the parameter in question to prevent this (deleting home) from happening and clarification for the intended use-case. Which is not at all freeing up space by deleting tempfiles. Yes the tool's name is misleading, but if you ever maintained a sizeable project you should be able to relate to not wanting to rename.
The bug got fixed after public outcry, but the working culture that allowed that bug to exist in the first place hasn't changed at all and that's the problem.
If you've ever maintained a sizeable project, you know that long term, discoverability and legibility outweigh literally everything else, and when you find a problem with supportability you can solve with grep you take that win every single time.
You may chose to believe that, the convo in the bug report and actions beg to differ. Sure the original state was bad, but it's clear there was nothing intentional or systematic about it. Like actually considering /home as temporary and wanting to purge it, as it widely insinuated. Anyway, I doubt there are any open minds in this discussions, si bit much point having them (yeah I realise that's inconsistent with me answering, I can't help it and don't claim to be fully rational (or close to) :) ).
@imsodin "Nothing intentional?" Guy, _read the bug_.
bluca's opening comment is quite literally "this is working as intended and you are stupid".
The second comment says explicitly "the tool itself is nothing wrong."
It's not until you're 2/3rds of the way down the page that someone says "We need to rethink how --purge works. The principle of not ever destroying user data is paramount" and the next 2 comments from Poettering and Bluca are repeating that No Actually It's Right Actually.
The whole system makes sense when your realize that SystemD's only constituency is people who want to rent out computers. Not for people who want to live under a their own roof, maybe in a community, to maybe build something together.
If I didn’t know better, I swear that systemd was an invention of Microsoft (since one of the creators is a MS employee) for the expressed purpose as a psyop against Linux users.
@cstross Wayland reminds me of the COBOL wars of my young programming days (& attempts to replace it w/Pascal & other languages). We still have COBOL. Xorg is going to stay for a long time. It never made sense to have Wayland & it’s a premature protocol that breaks a lot of the more used software. I’m sure at some point it will work, but I won’t be using it until I can rely on it. They’re probably years away.
rm -rf / requires you to use --no-preserve-root. I'm not sure about using * from within the root directory and I'm not about to spin up a VM to test it, but this at least acknowledges that there's a problem.
If you don't already know what it does, it at least isn't a command that gives the impression of doing something different.
Given that they've fixed the submitted bug in 256.1, it seems that the maintainers of systemd disagree with you as well.
systemd version the issue has been seen with 256 Used distribution Debian Unstable Linux kernel version used 6.8.12-amd64 CPU architectures issue was seen on x86_64 Component systemd-tmpfiles Expec...
This is the story of one of the best, and also one of the worst, text messages I've ever received. It's about harm, about consequences, and about the respons...
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Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to mhoye • • •@mhoye Look, it's plainly in the documentation that when you press this button, the computer will shoot you in the face. It's your fault for not reading the docs.
Do not question why there exists a button that shoots you in the face without warning
argv minus one
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •@me
This is a Unix-like system. It has quite a few buttons that shoot you in the face without warning.
Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to argv minus one • • •/and*. My point, which remains unchanged, was that there is an effort underway to reduce the number of foot guns, and that's a good thing.mhoye
in reply to mhoye • • •Look, "/home is a tempfile" isn't just a footgun, or a bug.
It's an explicit ideological attack on the whole idea of what Linux is and who Linux is for.
If /home is just a tempfile to be purged when drivespace pressure hits some arbitrary threshold then Linux is a corporate-owned SAAS shim, and that's all it is. It's not just "breaking userspace", it's abandoning the idea that the people using that space and the stuff they've made there matter at all.
Charlie Stross reshared this.
Simon Frei
in reply to mhoye • • •mhoye
in reply to Simon Frei • • •@imsodin Everything you've just said is wrong.
The bug got fixed after public outcry, but the working culture that allowed that bug to exist in the first place hasn't changed at all and that's the problem.
If you've ever maintained a sizeable project, you know that long term, discoverability and legibility outweigh literally everything else, and when you find a problem with supportability you can solve with grep you take that win every single time.
Also, this shit's not funny in the least.
Simon Frei
in reply to mhoye • • •mhoye
in reply to Simon Frei • • •@imsodin "Nothing intentional?" Guy, _read the bug_.
bluca's opening comment is quite literally "this is working as intended and you are stupid".
The second comment says explicitly "the tool itself is nothing wrong."
It's not until you're 2/3rds of the way down the page that someone says "We need to rethink how --purge works. The principle of not ever destroying user data is paramount" and the next 2 comments from Poettering and Bluca are repeating that No Actually It's Right Actually.
mhoye
in reply to mhoye • • •SystemD is for landlords.
The whole system makes sense when your realize that SystemD's only constituency is people who want to rent out computers. Not for people who want to live under a their own roof, maybe in a community, to maybe build something together.
SystemD is just software for landlords.
Will
in reply to mhoye • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to Will • • •Tek say vote
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Will
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Jonathan Lamothe
Unknown parent • • •@Krangled Failstate
This is nonsense for at least three reasons:
rm -rf /requires you to use--no-preserve-root. I'm not sure about using*from within the root directory and I'm not about to spin up a VM to test it, but this at least acknowledges that there's a problem.It was bad UX, plain and simple.
refuse systemd-tmpfiles --purge invocation without config file specified on cmdline · Issue #33349 · systemd/systemd
GitHubJonathan Lamothe
Unknown parent • • •Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •@Krangled Failstate As for your remaining points, watch this video:
If you still don't understand, watch it again.
The Consequences of Your Code
YouTubeJonathan Lamothe
Unknown parent • • •@Krangled Failstate
"Oh no, we found an unexploded land mine from the second world war."
"Pfft. It hasn't been a problem in all this time. It's fine."
This is basically the same argument.
Seriously. Just stop.