Dear reader, if you're here you're already interested in electric vehicles (EVs). Perhaps you already own one, or perhaps you're just curious, but like so many of us you're trying to figure out if they and the infrastructure they need are actually re…
Car, if 1000km roundtrip… Luxembourg, last year. If one way, sort of, then also car: a 7000km road trip around scandinavia (NL-GER-Ferry-FIN-NOR-SWE-DEN-GER-NL. In dire need of a change of scenery again.
Not really 1 trip but nearly 1000km in 2 days: visiting a friend at the other end of the country and going to a concert across the border in Germany. But planning some longer camping trips 😄
in the US, car is the only economical way to travel with a family of 6.
But every time I'm on an interstate driving through a low-population area in the middle of the night, with my kids asleep in the back of the minivan, baggage piled all around, I wonder how we got to the point where anyone thinks this approach is superior to a compartment on a train.
@Evan Prodromou car, but shared with 7-8 people (we rented a car with 9 seats, and it happened multiple years with slightly different combinations of people)
Train of course, it’s the best way to travel. The week before last I traveled 800km for work, stayed at destination for three nights and took the overnight train home. Good times.
@brion so, I think 1000km gets you to the Bay Area, right? I think that's a 20-hour trip on Amtrak; a pretty close equivalent to driving! But I think it leaves and arrives in the evening.
@brion yeah, I was just using this route as the example in my human-computer interface class. I'm doing a project on selecting transportation modes based on real experience like door-to-door times.
The drive time from SF to Portland is about 15 hours, iirc. While it's possible to do that if you have multiple drivers and can trade off, it's more likely that you'll need to stop for meals and sleep, so I estimated a door-to-door time of 29 hours (15 drive, 8 sleep, 6 meals).
First, there's a threshold between 500km and 1000km where train travel becomes significantly uncompetitive on time compared to air travel; 2x or 3x the door-to-door time commitment.
Second, I changed the phrasing of my question. Instead of, "What is your preferred mode of travel...?" I asked, "What mode of travel did you choose last?"
I think this cuts down a lot on the social desirability bias in responses.
For me, the last trip I took of this distance was a family wedding in New Jersey. We drove down in our electric car. It was harder than we expected; the availability of chargers in the Adirondacks was pretty lacking.
I expect country variability also. Trains and distances in Europe vs US vs Australia very different. (Compared with most everywhere else, Australia has very large, nearly empty gaps between major centres and slow trains)
Not just *social* desirability bias, but true desirability vs practicality. I’d love to take the train more often, but it lends itself best for travel to city centers and not for camping or roadtrips (by definition, of course, but also based on the smaller, more rural stops I’d like to make then).
actually let me rephrase that. I would love to spend a week on a train getting somewhere, but the capitalist hellscape we’re forced to live in does not allow for that extra travel time.
@aaron I think if those of us who can manage it shift some of our travel to low-carbon modes like rail, especially when it's only somewhat more inconvenient than flying or driving, it will help build out the rail service and make all trains better.
@GuillaumeRossolini that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about why many respondents might prefer trains at shorter distances but not longer distances.
Plane. I wanted to take the train but the only available options for my travel dates involved several stops and half a day, and car rental was 3x as expensive and involved driving in some places I didn't want to try driving.
(I usually drive an EV, which won't make the trip without several recharges.)
I feel you on this! Our EV has a range of 250-300km, so we'd need 3 charges minimum to make a 1000km trip. Chargers aren't always spaced exactly 250km apart, though!
We'd probably split it up into two days: drive and lunch + charge, then drive and sleep + charge, then drive and lunch + charge, then drive.
@brion flying is about 1.5 hr in the air, but with getting to the airport, check-in, security, then arriving and getting out of the destination airport, I anticipate about 6 hours door-to-door.
That's still a big advantage over driving or train! It only makes sense if price or carbon footprint are *really* important to you.
Once you have 3 or 4 people travelling, that 2-day drive starts to look really economical.
@Evan Prodromou My "preferred" transport was a 5–7-hour train that doesn't exist but could and should, so it was a plane rather than a 25-hour train ride (wall clock time) with 4 interchanges.
@Evan Prodromou The difference between the wine drinking as exercise and the train line to Brussels is that the train line is immediately achievable if someone makes the decision. The rail exists, the trains exist, just nobody decided to offer that route.
@brion I think it's probably fair to say that while a solo 15-hour drive is kind of a test of your sanity, a 15-hour drive with 3 other people is a *R*O*A*D* *T*R*I*P* wooooooooo
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Car, and I wrote about it:
chrisalemany.ca/2022/08/15/sav…
#ElectricVehicles #RoadTrip #Canada #EVCrossCanada #Family #CarbonEmissions #CO2 #ClimateAction
Saving CO2 on a Cross Country EV Journey - Murkyview
chrisale (Murkyview)Stephen Michael Kellat
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •James M.
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •infinite love ⴳ
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to infinite love ⴳ • • •penryu
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Mark Darbyshire
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Potato Enthusiast 🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •: j@fabrica:~/src; :t_blink:
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Vincent 🌻🇪🇺 en 🌹☘️
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Tony Hoyle
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Frank
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Frank • • •Frank
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Mark Andrew
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •OBB Night train to Berlin, then the ICE to Hamburg and a Danish regional train to Copenhagen, and finally the Swedish west coast train to Göteborg.
On the way back we took the OBB night train from Hamburg.
JP
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to JP • • •JP
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Marky Mark
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •SamUpstate
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •in the US, car is the only economical way to travel with a family of 6.
But every time I'm on an interstate driving through a low-population area in the middle of the night, with my kids asleep in the back of the minivan, baggage piled all around, I wonder how we got to the point where anyone thinks this approach is superior to a compartment on a train.
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to Evan Prodromou • •Oloturia
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •DrJekyll
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •genevieve
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to genevieve • • •genevieve
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Michael Roberts
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Michael Roberts • • •Michael Roberts
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
Unknown parent • • •Evan Prodromou
Unknown parent • • •JTLeskinen
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Mark Keisler
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Mark Keisler • • •John Socks
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Regina M
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
Unknown parent • • •Evan Prodromou
Unknown parent • • •@brion yeah, I was just using this route as the example in my human-computer interface class. I'm doing a project on selecting transportation modes based on real experience like door-to-door times.
The drive time from SF to Portland is about 15 hours, iirc. While it's possible to do that if you have multiple drivers and can trade off, it's more likely that you'll need to stop for meals and sleep, so I estimated a door-to-door time of 29 hours (15 drive, 8 sleep, 6 meals).
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •WOW. These results are wildly different than my poll about distances around 500km:
prodromou.pub/@evan/1098558667…
...and the one around 200km:
prodromou.pub/@evan/1097904411…
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I think there are two reasons for this.
First, there's a threshold between 500km and 1000km where train travel becomes significantly uncompetitive on time compared to air travel; 2x or 3x the door-to-door time commitment.
Till Westermayer
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Till Westermayer • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Second, I changed the phrasing of my question. Instead of, "What is your preferred mode of travel...?" I asked, "What mode of travel did you choose last?"
I think this cuts down a lot on the social desirability bias in responses.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-d…
response bias exhibited by survey respondents
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I may go back and re-run my shorter-distance polls with this new phrasing and see how they compare.
Thanks to everyone who replied!
Martin 🧀
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •James
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Vincent 🌻🇪🇺 en 🌹☘️
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Vincent 🌻🇪🇺 en 🌹☘️ • • •@photovince so, first, read about social desirability bias.
It's the tendency to give answers that conform to one's image of oneself, rather than to one's actual behaviour.
aaron
in reply to Vincent 🌻🇪🇺 en 🌹☘️ • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to aaron • • •aaron
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to aaron • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •aaron
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to aaron • • •aaron
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to aaron • • •@aaron do you think that's likely?
I don't think policymakers are going to invest in a network that nobody uses.
That's just throwing money away.
aaron
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to aaron • • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •aaron
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Empire Builder Train | Amtrak
www.amtrak.comEvan Prodromou
in reply to aaron • • •Myk
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Guillaume Rossolini
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I can think of a few other reasons that could change one's mind, at least where train and plane are concerned:
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Guillaume Rossolini • • •Guillaume Rossolini
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I do believe we are talking about the same thing, at least, that was my intent
Distance might not be the only or the main reason, and respondents may not have made the link between the polls (I hadn't)
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Guillaume Rossolini • • •@GuillaumeRossolini
So, 69% of respondents said they'd prefer trains for a trip of 200km.
23% of respondents said they booked trains for their last trip of about 1000km.
I am trying to explain the difference in those percentages -- 69% vs 23%.
I said that two possible explanations of those different percentages are a) the way the question was phrased, and b) the distance.
I agree that there are lots of factors in choosing a transportation mode.
Mark Andrew
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •James Brown
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to James Brown • • •I guess that comes down to how you define "preferred".
I'd say that my preferred form of exercise is lifting weights, since that's the one I do most commonly.
If wine-drinking helped me stay in shape, I'd "prefer" to do that instead.
It doesn't, though, so my habitual or "preferred' form is weight lifting.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Kat
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Plane. I wanted to take the train but the only available options for my travel dates involved several stops and half a day, and car rental was 3x as expensive and involved driving in some places I didn't want to try driving.
(I usually drive an EV, which won't make the trip without several recharges.)
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Kat • • •I feel you on this! Our EV has a range of 250-300km, so we'd need 3 charges minimum to make a 1000km trip. Chargers aren't always spaced exactly 250km apart, though!
We'd probably split it up into two days: drive and lunch + charge, then drive and sleep + charge, then drive and lunch + charge, then drive.
Kat
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •@brion flying is about 1.5 hr in the air, but with getting to the airport, check-in, security, then arriving and getting out of the destination airport, I anticipate about 6 hours door-to-door.
That's still a big advantage over driving or train! It only makes sense if price or carbon footprint are *really* important to you.
Once you have 3 or 4 people travelling, that 2-day drive starts to look really economical.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 • • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Oliver Cox
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •penryu
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to penryu • • •⚜️Δρakakiς🍁
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Combined bike, plane, car, boat-ferry, and train.
Ottawa (Bike) Montreal (Plane) Boston (Bike) Bar Harbour (Boat) Yarmouth (Bike) Halifax (Train) Montreal (Bike) Ottawa
Total distance approx. 2,300km
Evan Prodromou
in reply to ⚜️Δρakakiς🍁 • • •Evan Prodromou
Unknown parent • • •Juju&Baba&Yoyo🌈
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
Unknown parent • • •Maike
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: • • •