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A few points are missing, namely that moxie is NOT against including the websocket code when a good pull request is made. And I can only repeat myself, XMPP or other slightly more privacy friendly messengers are simply not there yet to be used by everyone. Signal does a very good job there.

@piratenpanda nobody who values privacy can use a android phone full if google spyware, and that is what signal requires to run. Even WhatsApp, telegram, threema etc can be used whitout google. Why not signal? I thought signal values privacy and security? No way. I can't use it anyway, but I would also not recommend it to anyone.
In addition, we know what's the problem with centralized US servers. Signal could be compromised by intelligence and nobody would notice.

And I still don't get why users running an Android phone or an iOS device shouldn't use the best tool available. We all wish for a perfect world, but we all know it won't happen instantly. I hope to create awareness by recommending Signal. Most people don't even know about alternatives. And no, I just can't recommend XMPP to anyone at this moment.

So this is only a first step and i perfectly understand that this is not the perfect solution. But where to go? The Jolla ecosystem is basically dead unfortunately it seems, Ubuntu phone is going the web app route instead of native apps it seems which is no solution either. So what should we use? I can't see an alternative to Android or iOS at the moment

Why don't they say what their plan is, or at least give a hint? This smells, in my opinion.

Come on people. Keep the conspiracy to yourself. There is a webrtc branch in github. Maybe this is it, maybe not

I advise #xmpp projects to different people, depending on their use case. I won't recommend #signal as the only solution. Yes awareness is very important. Giving users a broad landscape is important. I really hate when people get addicted to a hugely reduced view of Internet. I also explain p2p alternatives, and give pro and cons, and let the user free to chose, as much as possible.
But where to go?

There are different project ongoing and we need time, experiences, support to converge to a better solution, and yes it is hard. We know we need to protect metadata, we need p2p/federated integraton, self-hosting support, geolocation privacy protection : some form of anonymity.

This comes even from the fact that currently mobile phones communication-protocol-wise are not built for privacy, and we also have to work on that. Pressure to design mobile phone network which supports much better the privacy of users is quite important in a world where data collecting business is such ubiquitous. Sure this won't be solve just tomorrow, but must be solve in progress to find a solution that is better than what we have now. Again some mesh networks over ip help experience with that and help to go in that direction.

To answer you : there is no wonderful solution for now, and there are priorities users must select when using a communication system.

That's what I wanted to say

That whispersystems said that they plan to remove gcm values exactly nothing. They say that for years and nothing happened. Look at what they did in the desktop, chrome webapp AS the only Option. They dont want to go away from Google, they work together with facebook, Google etc.

Even if i wanted, i cant usw signal because i dont have gapps in my phone. Moxie is against federation, against alternative Clients, for Google Integration and so on. It is not an alternative.

That's wrong. The Chrome client just evolved as a side project, was probably never planned as THE desktop client. What most people don't seem to realize is that OWS is a VERY small group of people and they don't have enough people to make your dreams a reality. Either donate (money or code) or live with what they come up with.

And if you would read their blog they explain their reasoning behind each decision they make. If you agree with it is another point but I can't see any intentionally bad behaviour. Also the point of OWS always was to make end to end encryption ubiquitous, not to make Signal the best messenger out there. And if you take a look about how the Axolotl protocol, now Signal protocol, spread so far, they are doing a damn good job for the average Joe out there. Federation and other problems will be tackled afterwards. One step at a time. No project is there already so there must be a reason why that is so.

Signal is using Google services, how would it be secure ? Instead of Signal i'll advocate for Tox, which is trully #secure #p2p #distributed #encrypted instant messenger. The only downpoint yet is about mobile battery drain, due to it's p2p nature. But hey, privacy has a cost!

https://ricin.im - https://tox.chat


I do read their blog but in my opinion this reasons are rubbish. Oft course there is intentionalls Bad behaviour, ows is not in the open source and free software idea. Signal has only 2 advantages towards WhatsApp: - ows doesn't (yet?) sell or use the data - signal is partially open source

But on the other hand WhatsApp doesn't require gcm. Signal is not much better then WhatsApp.

But I agree, the signal/axolotl prokoll was amazing work.

@SkyzohKey +1 ;) I do use it on a daily basis and I can live with the side effects of p2p such as energy for battery and network consumption.

#signal is a better solution from #whatsapp or #skype, but as has been said, still supports PRISM friendly companies, even indirectly, it supports them as they force you to use GCM. (I haven't tested microG though) but building solutions out of companies like Google is a real feature when it comes to freedom of communications.

Sure OWS is a small team and I thank them for their great contribution such as the free and open code that is packaged as a lib than anyone can use in their comm. project. This is significant contribution. But I also thank freedom to not rely solely on #signal because it would then be wrong.
Federation and other problems will be tackled afterwards

Yes and probably by other people. Fighting against gated communities is a real challenge but hey... we love challenges right ;)

@sigsleep and all others: Thanks for your ideas! While you bring up that topic of fight against gated communities, I was wondering if there is a general understanding of how to tackle that problem.

It is a big problem in industry in general. Most/every companies try to make it impossible to use open standards, exchange data or being transparent about their products. They see it as their duty as gatekeepers to protect their intellectual property. While doing that they are a hindrance for the public interest and the evolution to better approaches.

One example is the adoption of building information modeling (BIM). All the parties involved (architects, engineering companies, software manufacturers of all kinds, technicians, etc.) know it would be great if there was a universal data base for all aspects of a building, connecting all the stages of a building's life cycle from planning to demolition. However, everybody is reluctant to share information as they fear to loose on profit. Eventually, the buildings don't work as expected, use more energy than necessary, need additional effort to fix problems. What a waste of resources ...

@intodarkness@pod.geraspora.de, sigsleep@nerdpol.ch: FYI, Signal works with microG as a replacement for the Google Apps. That is the setup I use.

Granted though, Signal + microG is still far from perfect: - Installing microG is not user-friendly at all, and requires hackish modifications for most Android ROMs. - You do not get automatic updates (or new version notifications) for Signal. - You have to compile the Signal client yourself or get the apk from the Play Store using things like Raccoon. - microG does not free you from Google Cloud Messaging, it only means that the software which runs on your smartphone and sends stuff to GCM is free software at least.

@Antoine rault - I know that and I used microG for a long time, but as u stated the messages still go through gcm, so no option for me. But of course better then using the normal gapps

@Antoine, as you mention, hacking my android to integrate microg to rely on google is not my goal at all.

https://twitter.com/CleveAnon/status/799254810675449856
@whispersystems Are there any plans to remove Signal's dependence on GCM? Those who want privacy want away from Google wherever possible

https://twitter.com/whispersystems/status/799291472423960576
@CleveAnon Yes

That's great news, raphaelh!