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Sweden to shut bars and restaurants that ignore coronavirus restrictions
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-sweden-stockholm/sweden-to-shut-bars-and-restaurants-that-ignore-coronavirus-restrictions-idUKKCN2262AQ
There has been only take-away here for a long time now - no bars or restaurants or cafes.
I suppose maybe we can see what difference more or less "lock down" makes?
Deaths per million are quite a bit higher than their neighbours - if the reporting is equal in methodology.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
@clacke
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Kermode
Kermode
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I concentrated on the latter two, because it's difficult enough comparing experiences between countries without trying to compare vastly different ones both culturally and geographically. 'vastly' - not claiming all such countries are the same.
in reply to Kermode

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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  Yeah, I'm just seeing people on the net talking past each other. Both of these things seem to be true:

- The light touch physical distancing seems to be working out relatively well for Sweden.
- It doesn't seem to have been the optimal strategy in terms of saving lives.
@Kermode
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Kermode
Kermode
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Weird. One would think the second point is slightly important!
Sweden 198 deaths/million
Denmark 68
Norway 37
Finland 31
I don't know why belgium is nearly an outlier (568 deaths/million). Spain and Italy are well-known.
Germany, Canada, Austria and Iran are about the same (60-65 deaths per million) - but the media made lots of noise about how bad it was in Iran!?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
in reply to Kermode

clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  Also one data point that the Sweden Is Doing Well side is pushing, is aligning the graphs according to "days from first reported death" and on that curve the Scandinavian graphs align and Sweden is simply a few days further ahead, but the slopes agree.
@Kermode
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Kermode
Kermode
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Oh yeah. That too! Need to normalize the start times - thank you for reminding me bud.
in reply to Kermode

clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  What bugs me with that method of anchoring the curves is that Sweden and Denmark had similar absolute case numbers back in early March, that is, the relative number was half that of Denmark's. But it's possible that just means Sweden was a quarter as good at testing, even before the rationing of tests officially started.

Sweden's slope has been slightly higher at some point -- it went from 2x Denmark (absolute) to 2.5x Denmark, but now it's holding at 2.5 x Denmark.

Then again, that *could* just reflect some specific incident, like, maybe more Swedes went to the Alps.
@Kermode
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Kermode
Kermode
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I know. I do.
I'm not trying to make this a popularity contest.
It is just very, very frustrating trying to compare *any* numbers for *anywhere* and somehow normalize them.
I mean the UK wasn't reporting deaths in old age homes, but only in hospitals?? WT actual F? Some test only frontline medical staff. Some have more general testing.
Some testing numbers include multiple tests on the same individual...
Some test cadavers. Others don't...
It's a total shitshow for statistics.
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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No, wait, Sweden is now 2.5x Denmark in relative numbers. I need to go back and check the report a few weeks ago.

*checks*

Oh. No, that slope does not look good. 20 days ago Sweden was 2.5x Denmark absolute, now it's 2.5x relative, so Sweden/Denmark has doubled in 20 days. That's not just a little bit worse, that's 1000 Swedes as of today, 1% of 1% of the population, that might have been saved if we assume the Danish approach would have led to Danish curves in Sweden.
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (4 anni fa)
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Kermode
Kermode
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This is the kind of thing I'm trying to figure out.
I know: me and every other geek on the planet.
Fortunately, I live in a fairly remote, lightly populated area in nothern-ish canada, vs downtown NYC, Madrid or Verona and can play with the numbers vs attending funerals.
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Kermode
Kermode
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by contrast, new york state with over 16k deaths (let's just use 16k) and 19.5 million (wiki says 19,453,561) = 821/million deaths, which is off the charts for the countries we looked at earlier.
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Kermode
Kermode
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You seem dumbfounded by that ny number?
I believe I can support the 16k number, but it must surely be more, as it is everywhere else - we don't always know that a death was caused by the new virus - and we don't test cadavers very often, if at all.
Also, there is more than one type of test and those aren't broken out in the 'number of tests performed' stats.
in reply to deejoe

Kermode
Kermode
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Ah. Thank you. L/O tabs.
State vs city. Thanks very much deejoe.
So 16k over 19 is 842. Didn't I have that earlier tonight?
That's still a crazy number.
Oh. Here it is, without the transcription errors:
https://mastodonten.de/@gemlog/104057143316265171
I had it at 821.
821... 842...
Unless you're a relative, the numbers are 'close enough' ;-)
And still stupid high compared to entire countries:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
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Kermode
Kermode
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NYC is a very crowded place in metro - I think that would explain it. At least to some extent.
But, then, so is Hong Kong! How to explain that disparity?
NYC: 10,715/km^2 (820/E6)
HK: 6,300/km^2 (deaths .5/E6)
Riddle me that!
I may stand to be corrected (again).
in reply to Kermode

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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  @Coffee & Aspirin Because when Hong Kong heard that 15 people were infected and 1 person dead, everyone bought rice, handrub and toilet paper, put on masks and went home, before the government had got around to saying anything. People who coughed in public without a mask were circulated on social media for public derision.

After Chinese New Year, my company *first* sent everyone home for a week, *then* started thinking about what this all meant, how many should be in the office, how to handle the risk of contamination, etc.
@deejoe @Kermode
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Kermode
Kermode
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Meanwhile, where I live...
Density is 1/2 a person per square kilometre. Restaurants, bars, cafes and most stores are closed. People are obediently queuing 2 meters from each other in food stores and pharmacies. Some wear masks - very few. No one I meet thinks masks protect themselves, but only others From Themselves IF sick. With so few sick and zero deaths, it's like we are playing along with a disease on mars... Even rarer more north of me in canada. Also zero deaths: No ppl.
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deejoe
deejoe
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I suspect Hong Kong's experience earlier helped a great deal:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002%E2%80%932004_SARS_outbreak
in reply to deejoe

Kermode
Kermode
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Canada had some deaths from SARS as well, but the disease was mostly far east from me in Toronto and I don't really remember much about it.
in reply to deejoe

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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Coffee & Aspirin @Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  For those of use who are new here and weren't here in 2003, the occasional heavy typhoon and in particular half a year of protests and intermittent partial shutdowns of society have also been helpful in preparing for this.

Hmm, looks like another minor crisis may be coming? Time to stock up the bunker and hunker down. :-)

We had been doing business continuation exercises back in August, so we had already made sure that key staff had the tools and access necessary to work from home ("WFH") at a moment's notice.

As for me personally, I was 50% WFH until school started last year, and before joining this company I was 100% WFH for two years, so I was better prepared than most, I suppose.
@deejoe @Kermode
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Coffee & Aspirin @Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  In terms of hygiene and mask use, yeah, Hong Kong is permanently (since 2003) in the habit of sanitizing All The Things.

Shopping malls have no-touch handrub dispensers at the entrances, lifts have a plastic sheet covering the buttons and a notice saying how often they're disinfected (every 1 or 2 hours). Same thing with handrails on escalators: Disinfection is documented. If people are sneezing and sniveling and insist on going outside or to the office, the cultural expectation is that you wear a mask. People have masks at home. New superpneumonia in town? Mask on.

I didn't follow along with all of this and thought it was a bit paranoid and overbearing. I have now seen the benefits and am a well-adjusted citizen.
@deejoe @Kermode
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Kermode
Kermode
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As you probably intended "I have now seen the benefits and am a well-adjusted citizen." was a very 1984 comment.
However, how our cultures will change permanently has been the topic of much discussion and perhaps HK will be the signpost in that regard.
in reply to Kermode

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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  @Coffee & Aspirin I think we all feel a bit like that when we enter a new culture. They do everything weird, and they have weird hangups based on prior experience we don't share, and it feels good to be a rebel and show everyone there's another way.

So former me would probably see an adjustment as caving in to the demands of Big Brother the host culture. But when you understand the host culture is actually right and you are wrong, better get with the program. πŸ™‚
@deejoe @Kermode
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clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Coffee & Aspirin @Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ  I still express my Swedishness, Scandinavianness, Europeanness and whiteness in other ways. πŸ™‚

I use dish brushes and Norwegian-style cheese slicers. I wear long pants when others wear shorts, and t-shirts when others wear down jackets. I consume outrageous amounts of bread, oats and dairy, and I pop my own popcorn every Friday. I ask cashiers to please please not put my things in a bag that they then put in the larger bag, and I bring my own grocery bag and pack things in my backpack.

I trust strangers, even in business. I don't put on sunscreen if it's not high noon and summer. I don't tell people unprompted that they're fatter/thinner than last time I saw them. I leave people's personal business alone and don't ask them when they'll have children. I hug people. I don't use "Did you eat yet?" as a common greeting.
@deejoe @Kermode
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Kermode
Kermode
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A store near me has now banned the use of re-usable bags - I was turned away the other day for having one. Can't even bring them in the store!
I'm from the same latitude as you, so I wear about the same clothing and have never bought or used sunscreen, because... There just isn't enough sun to bother about really.
I wouldn't dream of commenting on a person's weight! WTF? Ditto about children or their eating habits. That's just weird - to me. Normal in HK? Ask about BM's too? No.
in reply to Kermode

clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ 

> A store near me has now banned the use of re-usable bags - I was turned away the other day for having one. Can't even bring them in the store!

wut why

@Coffee & Aspirin
@deejoe @Kermode
in reply to deejoe

Kermode
Kermode
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A couple of African countries are quite serious about it: fines and even jail time for single-use plastic bags!
Up to 4 years and/or nearly 50k$CAD. They aren't messing around in Kenya. Other countries too.
in reply to Kermode

clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy πŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ͺπŸ‡­πŸ‡°πŸ’™πŸ’›
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@Ζ“Ξ΅Ι±Ι©oΙ 

BMs?

It's perfectly normal in Chinese culture, especially with relatives, to go: "hi, good to see you, it's been a while, wow, you've really lost weight, haven't you? are you eating properly? did you have lunch yet?"
@Kermode
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Elena ``of Valhalla''
Elena ``of Valhalla''
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It also happens, to some extent, in Italy, although being thin is considered desirable, so it will often be something like β€œI see you well, you've lost weight, right?β€œ (at least until one gets into losing more weight than it's healthy, thankfully, but this is getting OT).

β€œYou haven't eaten enough” is something that stereotypical grandmothers say, instead (probably related to the fact that grandmothers of my generation were the last generation to suffer from hunger; I guess that it will become less and less common.)

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